1 V I R G I N I A:







8 -vs- )AT LAW NO. 111949

9 )

10 STRAIGHT, INC., et al., )


12 ____________________________)




15 Transcript of trial proceedings, held at the Fairfax

16 County Courthouse, 4110 Chain Bridge Road, Fairfax,

17 Virginia, before THE HONORABLE MARCUS D. WILLIAMS and

18 a jury, beginning at 9:45 a.m., before Lauri M. Ploch,

19 a Registered Professional Reporter, when were present

20 on behalf of the respective parties:


1735 EYE STREET, N.W., SUITE 920

22 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006






4 Q. Dr. DuPont, could you state your name and

5 professional address, please?

6 A. Robert L. DuPont, M.D. 6191 Executive

7 Boulevard, Rockville, Maryland.

8 Q. Doctor, beginning with your college

9 education, could you give the jury your educational

10 background?

11 A. Yes. I graduated from Emory College in

12 1958, and I graduated from the Harvard Medical School

13 in Boston in 1963. I did my training in psychiatry at

14 Harvard, finishing in 1966, and then came to the

15 National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland,

16 where I was a clinical associate in psychiatry at

17 NIH. I received my board certification in psychiatry

18 in 1970.

19 Q. What is a board certification?

20 A. This is people who have completed residency

21 training in a specialty and then take a very strict

22 examination and, with luck, pass it.





1 Q. What involvement did you have with the

2 Reagan and Bush administrations concerning drug

3 treatment issues?

4 A. Well, when Ronald Reagan was elected

5 president and he and Mrs. Reagan came, she identified

6 addiction as a priority right away, and before they

7 had their own drug chief, she called in a number of

8 experts to meet with her, and I was fortunate enough

9 to be one of those people. So I met with Mrs. Reagan

10 in the White House in the first weeks of her term, and

11 I was very impressed by her and very interested in her

12 commitment which she sustained throughout the entire

13 eight years of her being a first lady and continues

14 now. And one of the programs that I encouraged her to

15 learn about was the Straight program, so I encouraged

16 her -- I can't say I convinced her, but I certainly

17 encouraged her to go to St. Petersburg and visit the

18 program, which she did, along with visiting many other

19 drug treatment programs.

20 Q. What are you doing currently? What is your

21 current employment situation?

22 A. Well, I see patients and have since 1978, so





1 of drug abuse?

2 A. I think it is about 12.

3 Q. How many articles have you written that have

4 been published concerning drug abuse?

5 A. It's coming up toward 200. I've been in the

6 field a long time.

7 Q. Have you received any honors concerning your

8 work in the drug abuse field?

9 A. Yes. A number of organizations have honored

10 me. I think the one that I was kind of proudest of

11 because it was so long ago was to be picked as

12 Outstanding Young Man in the District of Columbia

13 government in my early work in this field in 1970 by

14 the local JayCees.

15 Q. Have you received any awards from the

16 surgeon general?

17 A. Yes. I received a Superior Service Award

18 from the surgeon general for my work as head of NIDA.

19 That's the highest award that the surgeon general can

20 make.

21 Q. In what states do you hold licenses?

22 A. Currently I'm licensed in Maryland and




1 A. Their behavior is chaotic. They run away,

2 they are involved in aggressive behavior, they are

3 disrespectful of the people in the program, they are

4 just behaviorally unstable, which I think is part of

5 being adolescents, and it's exaggerated when they have

6 a problem with addiction to alcohol and other drugs.

7 Q. Now, are there different models of how

8 adolescent drug abusers are treated?

9 A. Yes, there are.

10 Q. Just generally, what are the different

11 models that are used?

12 A. Well, the most common form, and not a very

13 effective form, is counseling, where a person will

14 simply see a social worker or psychiatrist on an

15 outpatient basis with or without the family, and this

16 approach generally is not very successful, although

17 it's very commonly used.

18 The more intensive kinds of treatment that

19 are in the private sector right now are the

20 therapeutic community program, which is an intensive

21 inpatient, 24-hour a day, seven day a week program

22 that lasts about a year -- more or less a year, but



1 roughly a year on average -- and a hospital program

2 where you would come in for 28 days or perhaps as long

3 as six weeks for an inpatient program.

4 Now, the therapeutic community program is

5 the linear descendent of the earliest of the modern

6 addiction treatments. It started with a program

7 called Synanon in California in 1978 and spread around

8 the country. And here we have Second Genesis and

9 Crossroads and several others in this area, as well as

10 Straight, that provided this kind of treatment, which

11 really had to do with peers working with peers in the

12 program and had to do with confrontation and

13 relatively prolonged periods of treatment. That was

14 characteristic of the therapeutic community. The

15 therapeutic communities will often cost $2,000 a

16 month, so for an average stay of a year it would cost

17 $24,000, just to give you an idea. A hospital stay

18 with 28 days would typically cost at a psychiatric

19 hospital up to 25 or $30,000. And what is called a

20 residential treatment program might cost more like

21 $10,000. That's for 28 days of treatment, to get some

22 idea. But the therapeutic community is one of the




1 abused, Straight is liable, I don't need this guy.

2 But the case is really much more than that, because

3 they are alleging there were rules for this, there

4 were rules for that, they were forced to do different

5 things, and in order --

6 THE COURT: I don't think he is objecting to

7 that part. He wants to get to the meat of it.

8 MR. THOMPSON: That's what I'm saying. I

9 have no objection to some foundation.

10 MR. MORRISON: That's the next question.

11 MR. THOMPSON: We are getting a dissertation

12 on drugs right now, and that's not what we are after.

13 THE COURT: All right, sir.


15 (End of bench conference.)

16 (In open court:)



19 Q. Dr. DuPont, you talked about the various

20 models. Which model does Straight fall into?

21 A. Straight is part of the therapeutic

22 community tradition, but it is unique in several




1 the parents get confronted by other parents, don't

2 they?

3 A. Yes, and that word confrontation, if you had

4 to pick one word that characterizes therapeutic

5 communities, that is confrontation. That has always

6 been the key element of the therapeutic community,

7 that they are confronted. They confront the denial,

8 they confront the dysfunctional behavior in a very

9 direct way. I think an analogy that most people can

10 think about because it's become so much more popular

11 lately is boot camps. It has that same quality, that

12 sort of direct confrontation of a person with another

13 person in terms of trying to change that person's

14 behavior and improve the person's functioning, and

15 that happens with the families as well as the clients.

16 Q. What level of confrontation do you find to

17 be inappropriate?

18 A. Well, the therapeutic communities from the

19 combination have had what they call two Cardinal

20 rules. That is, no sex -- between members of the

21 program we are talking about now, and this is the

22 clients -- and no physical violence. So the



1 confrontation is verbal. It is not -- physical

2 violence is not tolerated. So I think what I'm

3 talking about, when I talk about confrontation, it's

4 verbal confrontation that has a point that is

5 basically a therapeutic objective.

6 Q. Is it appropriate to yell at somebody?

7 A. Yes, I think it's very appropriate.

8 Q. Doesn't that make the person being yelled at

9 pretty uncomfortable?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How, then, does that help that person if

12 they are uncomfortable as a result of being yelled at?

13 A. They say it helps them take an inventory.

14 They have to look into themselves and think about what

15 it is they are doing that is causing this to happen

16 and what they can do to change to bring it about. If

17 you think about a boot camp, don't they yell at people

18 in boot camp? This is a normal process that goes on.

19 It's not singling some particular person out. It's

20 the normal process of confrontation that goes on in

21 therapeutic communities.

22 Q. Is it appropriate with respect to the




1 parents?

2 A. The parents are in treatment, too, and the

3 answer is yes. This is a family program, and any

4 family who signs up for any therapeutic community can

5 figure they are going to be part of the process as

6 well. Questions are going to be asked about what is

7 going on in that family, and well they should be

8 asked. And when the group perceives that there is

9 dysfunctional behavior, especially dishonesty, that

10 will be confronted in a very direct way, including

11 very forceful presentations, including yelling and

12 hollering to make the point in a very vigorous way.

13 But physical violence is not acceptable.

14 Q. What does Straight hope to accomplish by

15 these confrontations?

16 A. Well, they talk about habilitation as

17 opposed to rehabilitation. They talk about the young

18 people who are coming in who have usually started drug

19 use at quite an early age, often 11, 12, 13, 14, and

20 often have failed at a number of other treatment

21 programs. And what they hope to do is help to

22 reinforce what we call pro-social values. Now, what



1 a long first phase that you are not going to do well

2 in the program.

3 Q. What is the theory between making them earn

4 second phase?

5 A. Well, you want it to be a valuable

6 experience, to be back with their family. You want

7 them to really treasure that and to feel like they

8 have accomplished something, and the families feel

9 when the kids get to second phase they are really

10 proud of their kids, that they've been through the

11 discipline. It's a little like the families feel when

12 a young person has gone through Marine boot camp and

13 they come back. You feel that you've got a kid who

14 has really been through something very tough and you

15 have a lot of respect for that, and that's how you

16 feel when you get a kid back from first phase.

17 Q. On first phase these kids are followed

18 everywhere, aren't they, the first phasers?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Why?

21 A. Because if you don't follow them they go

22 back to the drug addict sort of behavior. The talk,




1 the dress, the values, everything else is pieces of

2 one whole pattern of behavior and you want to

3 interrupt that. So there will be somebody who stands

4 right with them at all times who is limiting their

5 communication, keeping it focused on the task, and

6 keeping it positive and pro-social kinds of

7 communication. And when the kids show the negative

8 kind of behavior they are confronted directly every

9 time on first phase.

10 Q. Do you think that type of staying with the

11 first phaser at all times is clinically appropriate?

12 A. I think it makes a lot of sense. It's the

13 kind of thing you can't really do in a professional

14 program where you have staff because you can't afford

15 to pay people to be with everybody like that around

16 the clock. It's a wonderful example of what you can

17 do with a program that uses participants in the

18 program to carry out the purposes of the program.

19 That simply can't be done on the basis of hiring

20 people to do everything because it's unaffordable.

21 Q. What about the use of people who either are

22 further along in their recovery program or are



1 recovered substance abusers? Do you find that to be

2 appropriate?

3 A. That's uniform in addiction treatment, to

4 find that. Just as an example, in the Betty Ford

5 Center, the doctors who are running that program out

6 there or the senior people there are all recovering

7 addicted people themselves, they are all going to A A,

8 virtually all of the staff. Many of the people who

9 are not professional are recovering people

10 themselves. When I've sent patients out there, the

11 people that have made the biggest impression on them

12 are the recovering people who have come back to pass

13 it on. As the original founder of A A, Bill Wilson,

14 said, this concept that I've been through something, I

15 want to pass it on to somebody else. And they have a

16 credibility and an effectiveness that simply can't be

17 bought or learned at school.

18 Q. Does it matter whether these people have

19 received certifications as certified drug counselors?

20 Does the fact that they have or have not received

21 certifications that certify drug counselors have

22 anything to do with their effectiveness or change your




1 opinion in any way?

2 A. Well, let me make a distinction, because I

3 think there are important distinctions here. I think

4 that if you've got somebody who is functioning outside

5 of a program, in an office or somewhere else, away

6 from the support of the program, I think there's a lot

7 to be said for having people meet professional

8 qualifications and certifications and whatever else.

9 In other words, if they are holding themselves out as

10 an addiction counselor and acting independently, I

11 think that that's important. What we are talking

12 about here is people who are functioning in the

13 envelope of the program right while they are there,

14 and I think that's an entirely different matter. So

15 in the context of a program where there's lots of

16 communication, I think it is very appropriate to use

17 people who do not have and do not seek and never will

18 have professional certification as addiction

19 counselors.

20 Q. You know that Straight uses recent graduates

21 and people further along as part of the therapeutic

22 process?




1 military kind of thing or a tight knit organization

2 kind of a behavior than a more free form Alcoholics

3 Anonymous meeting. But basically it is what happens

4 in therapeutic communities. The therapeutic

5 communities do raps. They have these very structured

6 group meetings, and I can tell you that the power of a

7 group over changing behavior is very, very great;

8 that you simply can't achieve the same improvement on

9 an individual basis. The group is very powerful.

10 Q. Is it a peer pressure type of thing?

11 A. Yes, it is peer pressure. It's the sense

12 that this is the way we think here. This is the way

13 the program works. And to be part of that is to get

14 on the road to recovery. You sort of suspend your

15 individual -- well, to go back to something that I

16 mentioned. The original Straight therapy program -- I

17 mean the original therapeutic community program was

18 called Synanon. That really was a cult. You went

19 into Synanon and you stayed forever. You never came

20 out. You were part of that forever. And one of the

21 things that's very important about Straight and the

22 modern therapeutic communities is that you stay for a




1 very short time. It's very intensive but it's very

2 open in the sense that you leave it. And that's very

3 important, that there's a limit to the intensity of

4 what is happening. You go out the other side of it.

5 It is not forever. And that's very important in terms

6 of the psychology of the use of confrontation and the

7 use of intensive pressure.

8 Q. At Straight during first phase you are not

9 allowed to talk to your parents about things that are

10 currently going on; is that right?

11 A. That's my understanding.

12 Q. You are only allowed to talk to them either

13 during mike talk or with a phaser present?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you find that to be appropriate?

16 A. Yes, I think what's happening is the program

17 is trying to control the communication between the

18 parents and the kids because that's often been a

19 problem. And basically what happens in the first

20 phase, if you don't do that, is the kids complain to

21 the parents and the parents are afraid for the kids

22 and the whole thing comes crumbling apart.




1 Q. But don't you want the kids to be able to

2 complain to the parents? I mean --

3 A. No. You want them to be able to deal with

4 their problems themselves, to take it right there. I

5 think you really need to realize that the Straight

6 program is quite open. You know, it is not as if

7 there's some closed community that is in some

8 nefarious kind of purpose. The program is constantly

9 dealing with newcomers coming in and oldcomers going

10 out the other side. So the people who are doing all

11 this are people who have been through it themselves

12 and who are going out. So it is an open system and

13 it's a relatively short period of time. So I think

14 you do want to control that communication. And it's

15 not no communication, but when the communication goes

16 on there's somebody present there to monitor it and to

17 bring it back to the group.

18 Q. Is that because the focus of all of them is

19 substance abuse, period?

20 A. Focus of what?

21 Q. Of the patients, is to focus on their

22 substance abuse problem?




1 A. Yes, yes, but I think you need to think

2 about, it is not just the substance abuse. It's also

3 what is called the character defects that are part of

4 the substance abuse. And the character defects have

5 to do with the denial. It has to do with

6 irresponsibility. It has to do with impulsive. It

7 has to do with manipulation. That's where there's a

8 side of the addictive disease that is so closely tied

9 in with irresponsibility and impulsiveness. And what

10 you are trying to do is change that by getting the

11 people to be accountable for their behavior, to be

12 able to not be impulsive but to work their way through

13 a structured and a difficult process.

14 Q. With all these rules, aren't you really

15 trying to brainwash these kids?

16 MR. THOMPSON: Your Honor, I haven't

17 objected to him leading, but he is leading the witness

18 and I would appreciate it if he would start asking the

19 questions.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.


22 Q. Does Straight have what is called a parents



1 MR. THOMPSON: But, Your Honor, the question

2 was whether or not --

3 THE COURT: Let him respond to your

4 objection, please.

5 MR. MORRISON: They testified that they felt

6 because of parents weekend that Bill might be in

7 danger in some fashion, and that's where this is

8 going.

9 THE COURT: I'll give you some latitude, but

10 keep in mind, that issue of the decline of the

11 marriage is no longer in the case.

12 MR. THOMPSON: I'll withdraw my objection.


14 Q. Does confrontation of parents take place?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Why does it take place?

17 A. Because oftentimes the parental behavior is

18 unwittingly perpetuating the child's drug use.

19 Q. Is that confrontation based towards any ill

20 will towards the child of anybody else?

21 MR. THOMPSON: Your Honor, I've got to

22 object to this because in view -- I mean, it happens.




1 Fine. But the point is this. There's nothing in this

2 -- this is not directed to our people at this point

3 in time. He is just talking generally about what

4 happens at Straight and what happens in that context

5 is totally irrelevant. I think we understood at the

6 very beginning he was going to talk about Straight,

7 that's fine, but at least within the context that it

8 is relevant to William Fager, and if he continues

9 I'm objecting to him continuing. What he said so far,

10 I don't have a problem.

11 MR. MORRISON: I'll move on, Your Honor.

12 THE COURT: All right, go ahead.


14 Q. Are restraints used in inpatient substance

15 abuse programs generally?

16 A. All inpatient facilities, including

17 psychiatric hospitals, which I'm very familiar with,

18 as well as addiction treatment programs, restraints

19 are a common problem because out-of-control behavior

20 is a common problem.

21 Q. What do you mean by out-of-control behavior?

22 A. Hitting, running away, self-destructive



1 behavior. Somebody might run and bang their fist into

2 a wall, for example. People can attempt suicide. All

3 kinds of things happen.

4 Q. So as somebody working in an inpatient

5 facility or psychiatric hospital, what do you do when

6 somebody does something like that? What are your

7 options?

8 A. I think there are three basic options that

9 you have for dealing with out-of-control behavior.

10 One is chemical treatment or tranquilization where the

11 person is giving an injection of a major tranquilizer.

12 Essentially this is what happens when they work in

13 wild animal kind of situations. You essentially make

14 the person unable to move to do anything. And that's

15 chemical restraint.

16 Q. Does that take place at some facilities?

17 A. Oh, yes, it's very common in psychiatric

18 hospitals. Chemical restraint is a common part of

19 what happens to people, and it's not necessarily a bad

20 thing, but it is an extreme form of restraint and it

21 is commonly used.

22 The second form of restraint is physical




1 restraint, where you will tie a person down to a bed

2 or put him in a straightjacket or in some other

3 handcuff. In some way what you do is immobilize the

4 person with physical restraints.

5 The third form of restraint is with human

6 hands. You hold the person. And to do that it takes

7 several people. One person is not going to hold

8 another person. It will take several people to be

9 able to hold one person who is angry and out of

10 control. And of the three, the one that is used at

11 Straight is the human restraint, the hands-on

12 restraint, and in general that is the most humane, the

13 least restrictive, the most responsive of the three

14 forms of restraint. Now, none of it is particularly

15 attractive, but you are dealing with something that is

16 potentially very dangerous. And all three have their

17 places, but I think the hands-on human restraint is

18 the most humane and the least restrictive.

19 Q. Do you believe it is clinically appropriate

20 to humanly restrain somebody who is acting as if they

21 are going to do violence to themselves or somebody

22 else?




1 A. Yes, definitely.

2 Q. What's the alternative?

3 A. Well, let them do it, would be one

4 alternative. And the other would be to take one of

5 those other two approaches, the chemical restraint or

6 the physical restraint.

7 Q. Now, you've had occasion to study the

8 Straight model, the Straight program?

9 A. Yes, I have.

10 Q. And to study the five phases that the

11 children go through?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And to study the use of raps?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. From your knowledge of Straight in what

16 you've testified to today, do you believe that

17 Straight is a clinically appropriate program for an

18 adolescent with a substance abuse problem?

19 A. Yes. I've referred patients to Straight. I

20 also should say that in my practice it is not uncommon

21 for me to see people who have been in the Straight

22 program and I treat them after they have come out.




1 Some of them have graduated, others of them have been

2 dropped out. So I've heard a lot about the Straight

3 program from people who have been there as well as

4 having been to a number of sessions myself. So my

5 opinions are based not only on my experience of seeing

6 the program but also seeing a fairly large number of

7 people who have been in the program and have come out,

8 not all of whom like the program.

9 MR. MORRISON: The court's indulgence, Your

10 Honor.

11 Your Honor, I have no further questions of

12 Dr. DuPont.

13 THE COURT: Cross examination?

14 MR. THOMPSON: Your Honor, could I ask the

15 clerk to pull Exhibits Number 92 and 93, please?

16 THE COURT: Are you talking about

17 plaintiffs'?

18 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, plaintiffs'.








1 Q. Dr. DuPont, we have heard you discuss the

2 question of Straight, Incorporated, and various and

3 sundry other drug programs here this morning.

4 You have been associated with Straight for

5 quite some time, have you not?

6 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "associated."

7 I've been knowing about the program and had contact

8 with it since 1978.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Right.

11 Q. And during the course of your knowing about

12 the program, you have been highly involved in its

13 activities, have you not?

14 A. I've never been employed by Straight.

15 Q. No, I'm not asking about your employment.

16 I'm talking about being involved in its activities.

17 You've been a protagonist of Straight for many years,

18 have you not?

19 A. Along with a lot of other drug treatment. I

20 haven't singled that out, but this is one of the

21 treatment programs that I have been very supportive

22 of, yes, sir.




1 Q. And during the course -- I'm going to use

2 the word involvement -- with Straight, you've been

3 called upon a number of times to testify on behalf of

4 Straight when they have been sued. Is that not

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. How many times?

8 A. I don't know. I think maybe two.

9 Q. Well, as far back as 1983 you've testified

10 for them, haven't you?

11 A. Yes, in District Court, I think, in

12 Alexandria.

13 Q. And didn't you also testify for them another

14 time, in Florida?

15 A. I don't remember. I may have. There were a

16 couple of other suits that I think were settled that I

17 never went to trial about that I was involved with,

18 but I don't remember any other court appearances. But

19 there may have been another one.

20 Q. But they have come to you for your aid, to

21 come before the jury and tell them the things that

22 you've told this jury on occasions in the past?




1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. In addition to that, doctor, you have been a

3 consultant to them; is that correct?

4 A. I'm not sure that's true. It may be true.

5 I have spoken at graduations and things like that on a

6 couple of occasions.

7 Q. You've also been a fund raiser for them; is

8 that correct?

9 A. I may have spoken at a fund raising session

10 many years ago.

11 Q. When was the last time you spoke for them?

12 A. Six, eight years ago.

13 Q. But over the years, you have been in touch

14 with them in terms of trying to propose plans for them

15 and advising them on drug treatment programs?

16 A. Yes. And in fact, I first visited the

17 Straight program in 1978 in St. Petersburg and I was

18 sufficiently impressed that I encouraged the board of

19 directors to expand into a national program.

20 Q. There was a man by the name of Mel Sembler.

21 Do you know who is he?

22 A. I sure do.




1 times total.

2 Q. When you went there did you go unannounced?

3 A. No. I never went unannounced.

4 Q. And when you went, was it for group

5 meetings, parent rap, that sort of thing?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And you were considered to be a guest at the

8 program at that point in time?

9 A. Yes, sir, always.

10 Q. You didn't visit the program at any time, at

11 Springfield, at least, other than during the day, just

12 drop in and see how the raps were going?

13 A. Not unannounced. No, I did come in the

14 daytime as well the evening but I never came

15 unannounced.

16 Q. So whatever you saw was what the people were

17 doing, but the people knew that were in charge you

18 were coming before you got there?

19 A. Every time I visited, yes, sir.

20 Q. With reference to these moral inventories,

21 apart from what you have just stated, were you at any

22 time involved with anybody who was in charge of




1 straight backed and unable to bend their back or

2 relax?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Are you aware that if they did that, some of

5 the other phasers would walk up behind them or step

6 behind them and with their knuckles, jam them down

7 their spine?

8 MR. MORRISON: I object. There's no

9 testimony to that at all.

10 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, there was, on at least

11 two witnesses.

12 THE COURT: Excuse me. Please don't do

13 that.

14 MR. THOMPSON: There was at least two

15 witnesses testified to it.

16 THE COURT: Mr. Morrison?

17 MR. MORRISON: Your Honor, there was

18 testimony that people ran their knuckles up and down

19 their spine. There's no testimony of anyone jamming

20 anything.

21 THE COURT: I don't remember the word

22 jamming.




1 MR. THOMPSON: Take the word jam out of it,

2 doctor.

3 THE COURT: Rephrase the question.


5 Q. That they ran their knuckles up and down

6 their spine in order to make them sit back up?

7 A. I don't recall ever hearing that or thinking

8 about that.

9 Q. With reference to the confrontation, did you

10 ever hear that anyone was placed in a closet and

11 forced to stay there while they were confronted?

12 A. I read that in Mr. Fager's deposition.

13 Q. And apart from that were you aware of it?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. Well, you hadn't been there for four or five

16 years, and what I'm asking you is, during this period

17 of time did you ever hear of it?

18 A. No, that never came up.

19 Q. With reference to the restraints, doctor,

20 you described the three different types, two physical

21 and one drug. Would it be appropriate -- first of

22 all, do you know what the word motivating means?




1 A. Yes, in general.

2 Q. Would you describe for the jury so we

3 understand what you understand it to be.

4 A. It means encouraging somebody to be involved

5 -- to do something or to think something in a

6 particular direction, like buying Coca-Cola.

7 Q. I'm sorry?

8 A. Like buying Coca-Cola. Motivating me to buy

9 Coca-Cola.

10 Q. If I told you that what it meant to the

11 phasers was sitting on their chair during rap and

12 waving their arms in a wild fashion, were you aware of

13 that?

14 A. Yes, yes, I've seen that.

15 Q. Were you aware of the fact that if a person

16 didn't motivate appropriately, his arms would be

17 shaken for him?

18 A. No, I didn't know that.

19 Q. Were you aware that if a person who was not

20 motivating enough resisted, he would be thrown on the

21 floor?

22 MR. MORRISON: I object to that. I think



1 the testimony was he would be restrained.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Would be restrained?

3 MR. MORRISON: After physical resistance.


5 Q. If he resisted them wiggling his arms, he

6 would be restrained?

7 A. I can imagine that.

8 Q. Could you imagine someone during the course

9 of the restraint being pushed down on the floor in a

10 sitting position with his legs out straight and have

11 his head pushed down into his knees?

12 A. I can imagine that.

13 Q. Would that hurt?

14 A. It might.

15 Q. Would it be appropriate therapeutic

16 treatment or would it be appropriate restraint?

17 A. Well, if the person were injured it wouldn't

18 be appropriate, but if the person wasn't injured I

19 would think it would be appropriate.

20 Q. During the course of a restraint would be it

21 be appropriate restraint if his arm was broken?

22 A. That would not be appropriate.




1 Q. If the person was placed in the closet, as I

2 talked before, and had been confronted and had someone

3 yell and scream at him in a volume that this jury has

4 heard for up to an hour for 40 days in a row and spit

5 in his face and not let him wash it off before he went

6 to bed, would that be appropriate confrontation?

7 A. Well, it might be.

8 Q. Under what circumstances would that be

9 appropriate, doctor?

10 A. Well, I think that the issue would be what

11 the person's responsiveness to the program is.

12 Q. How about if he wasn't making -- oh, it

13 would be okay to spit on him?

14 A. I don't know spit on him. I don't think

15 there was any -- at least in my understanding of the

16 deposition there was no claim that he was being spit

17 on. In fact, he went to some extent to say no, he

18 wasn't being spit on. If I understand --

19 Q. Who said this?

20 A. William Fager, in the deposition.

21 Q. So you have reviewed all the records?

22 A. No, just that deposition.




1 Q. You were saying that this 24-hour -- I

2 don't know what word to use -- where they were

3 involved or in contact with the upper phaser for 24

4 hours a day was good?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That includes bathing with them in the same

7 room, requiring that they take a bath and they

8 required that they have their hands up on the towel or

9 the shower curtain rod?

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. That they go to the bathroom at the same

12 time while someone else is present? They sleep with

13 them?

14 A. Uh-huh.

15 Q. All of that is appropriate treatment?

16 A. Yes, so they don't run away.

17 Q. Uh-huh. You talked about the dishonest

18 list, doctor. Would it be appropriate treatment to

19 require someone to talk about his most intimate sexual

20 problems or sexual contacts and then have him stand up

21 and make him talk about them in front of 200 people?

22 A. I think that happens in group kinds of




1 sessions in a psychiatric and drug abuse context

2 fairly often.

3 Q. Where they force them to do it?

4 A. I don't know about force.

5 Q. Well, that's the point here.

6 They were forced to be spit on, they were

7 forced to sleep with someone.

8 MR. MORRISON: Your Honor, he doesn't need

9 to testify.

10 THE COURT: I think you need to ask the

11 question in more accurate terms than characterizing

12 them doing it. You may want to describe the activity

13 more precisely.


15 Q. So it would not be appropriate if he were

16 forced to do this?

17 MR. MORRISON: Your Honor, in what way is he

18 saying he was forced?

19 THE COURT: Sustained. I think you can be

20 more specific.


22 Q. Well, during the group raps, doctor, the




1 testimony has been that one person would stand up and

2 say -- he was called the subject -- and then say,

3 can you relate to that, or is there anyone who can

4 relate to that? And if they wanted to call Bill Fager

5 up, they would say, Bill, can you relate to that? And

6 he knew he had to stand up or he was going to get

7 confronted. And then they would perhaps use some very

8 embarrassing subject that he didn't want to talk to

9 but he knew he would get confronted if he didn't do

10 it. Is that appropriate?

11 A. It doesn't offend me, my sense of

12 appropriateness, no.

13 Q. From a psychiatric point of view it is a

14 medically accepted therapy?

15 A. In a therapeutic community context I think

16 so. I think that the kind of behavior that you are

17 talking about is part of the out-of-control adolescent

18 behavior that leads to the person coming in there.

19 And the way the therapy works is to work in a group

20 setting where that information is brought up and

21 discussed. Now, within the group confidentiality is

22 maintained, and there are a lot of efforts to do that




1 so that it doesn't go outside the group. But within

2 the envelope of the group, intimate details,

3 embarrassing information is discussed, and that's not

4 unusual.

5 Q. In front of 200 people?

6 A. Sure.

7 Q. All right. How big is the biggest group you

8 would say it would be inappropriate in?

9 A. I don't know. The Straight groups I think

10 maybe get up even higher and some of them into the

11 200s, but 200 is roughly the full large group with the

12 families and all the clients together.

13 Q. You are assuming that?

14 A. That's about what it is. When I've seen it

15 that's roughly what it is.

16 Q. And you haven't seen it for six years?

17 A. Well, four years maybe. Yeah, four, five

18 years.

19 Q. And you are not aware of anything that was

20 going on during the years 1989 to 1990 at that

21 institution?

22 A. Well, no, that's not correct. Remember, my